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Author Topic: FOTA issues and discussion.  (Read 10532 times)

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Offline Oldtony

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #80 on: March 27, 2009, 10:14:57 pm »
Read Bernie's press release on F1.com.
He is saying he doesn't owe any team any monet at all, and even if maybe he does he is not paying them until they com crawling to him with a signed copy of is version of the Concorde.
And just to make it clear, there is no such thing as FOTA, just a bunch of people who think they are F1 teams.
He really is going over the top. The sooner they all stop worrying about diffusers and get togther and dump Bernie the better. :pissed:
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Offline Cammos

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2009, 12:56:04 am »
Read Bernie's press release on F1.com.
He is saying he doesn't owe any team any monet at all, and even if maybe he does he is not paying them until they com crawling to him with a signed copy of is version of the Concorde.
And just to make it clear, there is no such thing as FOTA, just a bunch of people who think they are F1 teams.
He really is going over the top. The sooner they all stop worrying about diffusers and get togther and dump Bernie the better. :pissed:

Half of Bernies money will go to his wife when they finish their divorce.

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Offline Everso Biggyballies

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2009, 12:09:57 pm »

The FOTA teams are saying there is still monies owed from 2006 and 2007, let alone 2008.

Personally I would take the side of FOTA on this.... Bernie more than any of them combined less noted for his honesty than his self centred greed.  Clearly he is trying to squeeze every $$$ he can for CVC to keep them financial given their huge debts and ongoing payment of interest needs.
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Offline Yoda

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2009, 12:12:28 pm »
As I have said many times befeore,its time for new FIA management, one without the vested interests and one that can make long term planning part of its DNA.


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Offline Millsie

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2009, 05:58:05 pm »
Read Bernie's press release on F1.com.
He is saying he doesn't owe any team any monet at all, and even if maybe he does he is not paying them until they com crawling to him with a signed copy of is version of the Concorde.
And just to make it clear, there is no such thing as FOTA, just a bunch of people who think they are F1 teams.
He really is going over the top. The sooner they all stop worrying about diffusers and get togther and dump Bernie the better. :pissed:

Half of Bernies money will go to his wife when they finish their divorce.

John Lennon and whats her face ring a bell to anybody here?
I think you mean Paul McCartney and what's her face?

Offline Everso Biggyballies

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #85 on: March 28, 2009, 06:12:16 pm »
Read Bernie's press release on F1.com.
He is saying he doesn't owe any team any monet at all, and even if maybe he does he is not paying them until they com crawling to him with a signed copy of is version of the Concorde.
And just to make it clear, there is no such thing as FOTA, just a bunch of people who think they are F1 teams.
He really is going over the top. The sooner they all stop worrying about diffusers and get togther and dump Bernie the better. :pissed:

Half of Bernies money will go to his wife when they finish their divorce.

John Lennon and whats her face ring a bell to anybody here?
I think you mean Paul McCartney and what's her face?

Yes I dont think its John Lennon, and probably mean Paul McCartney (Heather Mills was the ex wife in question)..... Maybe he was just 'pulling your leg'..... :o :blush: ooer sorry if thats a bit bad taste but its been a big day.
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Offline Mothers Worry

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #86 on: April 02, 2009, 05:59:32 am »
FOTA to push for its points system 

From autosprt.com:

Quote
FOTA to push for its points system 

Wednesday, April 1st 2009, 09:29 GMT

The Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) will make a concerted effort to push through its favoured points structure for next season, despite it being rejected by the FIA last month.

FOTA had wanted to revise the current points system to offer more reward for the top three finishing positions, following examination of a market research exercise conducted with fans.

The proposal was put to the FIA, but the governing body opted against it - and instead chose a 'winner takes all' system where the world title would be handed to the driver with the most victories.

In the end, that system was also dropped after FOTA complained that the FIA could not change the rules so close to the start of the season without unanimous support of the teams.

With the FIA set to consult with the teams and F1 commercial chief Bernie Ecclestone about making a change to the points for 2010, Martin Whitmash, the head of FOTA's sporting working group, says the teams are keen to stick with their original proposal.

"It's FOTA's position that that's what we support, but there are some other bigger issues on the table at the moment and I don't think we'll be putting it to the top of our agenda," said Whitmarsh, referring to the technical controversies that overshadowed the build-up to last weekend's Australian Grand Prix.

"If anyone were to ask me, given that we did the audience survey we had a long and thorough debate within FOTA, it was the most considered proposal that we had and therefore we'd support it in the future."

Whitmarsh believes that the points structure favoured by FOTA was the best compromise between offering a bigger incentive to win, without getting the title decided too early if one driver is dominant.

"There's a feeling that winning or an incentive to overtake should be enhanced, and FOTA did a very professional job in surveying the opinions of the public and fans and they wanted a change," he explained.

"I wouldn't have promoted a change were it not for the opinion of the fans. But having gone out and done the audience survey, I felt that FOTA needed to take account of what we were being told and that's how the FOTA proposal was generated. It was a reasonable compromise.

"If you'd stretched out the reward for winning even more, you were in danger of finishing a championship halfway through a season. It's always a balance – you want that higher level of differentiation to create the incentive in each race, but if you stretch it too far you risk damaging the overall championship and its duration.

"The FOTA proposal was a good balance, but that wasn't accepted and that's someone else's opinion. Perhaps we need to look at that again."
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Offline Jiji_the_cat

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #87 on: April 02, 2009, 07:44:45 am »
i really hope FOTA get there way, but the way Bernie and max operate these days, i find hard to believe the outcome will be FOTA's desired points system. :hmm:
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Offline Everso Biggyballies

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #88 on: April 02, 2009, 01:30:21 pm »
i really hope FOTA get there way, but the way Bernie and max operate these days, i find hard to believe the outcome will be FOTA's desired points system. :hmm:

Yes I fear you are right Jiji..... we have already seen / heard from Bernie that it will happen for 2010 'whether FOTA like it or not'.

Which brings up the subject of hypocrisy.

FOTA have presented a carefully considered proposal backed by Market Research results FROM THE FANS, proving that it is a format that the teams and the fans would not only like but overcomes the shortcomings of the current system.

However that is not good enough for Bernie, who feels his own poorly considered and dismissed by the fans proposal, which it has to be said was then subsequently submitted for consideration at a WMSC meeting outside of the basic rules and constitution of the FIA.  Not only was it inadmissable from a constitutional point of view from a timing point of view,  but the agenda of that meeting was confined specifically to judge the FOTA proposal as a replacement to the current system.  Period.  No mention of any 'and to consider alternative methods or proposals.'  A strict Black and white 'Yes or No' vote to the FOTA proposal.

Yet we all woke to the news that the very basis on which the WDC has been judged and awarded for 60 years was to be cast aside. It did not consider the teams, and more to the point it flew in the face of adversary to everything the fans wanted. It flew in the face of all the negatives and fan responses to the basically similar medal based Olympics system Bernie had originally favoured. It suited maybe a handful of people, specifically one Bernie Ecclestone, keen to confirm his status as Mr F1.

Such decisions have to consider the manufacturers if only because it redefines the type of cars they would prepare to run in the championship.   Whereas the current cars are designed built and prepared on the basis of quick and reliable, to be able to win a few but always finish in the mix or on the podium.   Had this Bernie 'Winner takes all' based system been known about then the teams would surely have designed and built cars that whilst fragile and maybe possessing a 60 / 40 chance of finishing.  They would be designed as win or bust cars.

Lets face it Bernie is scared shitless of FOTA, as can be seen from his latest FOTA has imploded stance in which at the mere thought of disagreement over any issue (viz Diffusers) has been exagerrated to levels of Brawn and Briatore chasing each other round the paddock with hatchets mentality.

Bernie needs to reconsider his basic function, as does the FIA. Work with the fans and teams on the future, and not with with their personal accountants. They are the lifeblood of the sport, and without which F1 would be unsustainable.  Rather than introduce a host of new items to confuse F1, some of which have admittedly worked and are good, ( based on one race  :RollEyes: ;)) they should spent half an hour rewriting a couple of the existing rules to iron out loopholes that have existed for a long time.  Oversights such as a Safety Car rule that have embroiled F1 in conroversy for 2 of the last half a dozen or so races.   

People talk about mega ego's in F1.   To my mind ego's with anyone in their 20's, all millionaires and huge worldwide media stars, all responsible for promoting billions of dollars of sponsors monies, ego is a word that is unavoidable.   Most of them mature over time as do we all. 

Almost all anyway..... Bernie has more ego than all, and he is almost 80 years old!   Grow up Bernie and use your undoubted wisdom and experience to the benefit of the Sport.  My opinion. ;)
"Why doesnt someone tell Pedro its raining"- Chris Amon 1000km Brands Hatch 1970

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Offline Jiji_the_cat

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #89 on: April 02, 2009, 02:36:12 pm »
Quote
People talk about mega ego's in F1.   To my mind ego's with anyone in their 20's, all millionaires and huge worldwide media stars, all responsible for promoting billions of dollars of sponsors monies, ego is a word that is unavoidable.   Most of them mature over time as do we all.

Almost all anyway..... Bernie has more ego than all, and he is almost 80 years old!   Grow up Bernie and use your undoubted wisdom and experience to the benefit of the Sport.  My opinion. Wink

well put EB.
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Offline Mothers Worry

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #90 on: April 10, 2009, 07:30:36 am »
Brawn: Diffuser row not affecting FOTA 

From autosport.com:

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Brawn: Diffuser row not affecting FOTA 

Thursday, April 9th 2009, 12:24 GMT

Ross Brawn is confident that the unity of the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) is holding together, despite the pressures being put on it by the wrangling over diffuser designs.

FOTA had always faced a challenge to keep all its members aligned amid the inevitable rows that erupt in the heat of competition.

And Brawn, who heads up FOTA's technical working group, believes the 'test case' of the diffuser controversy is showing that the body can come through such disputes without getting fractured.

"What I am pleased about is that FOTA is still operating well within its mandates, objectives and so on," said Brawn, whose team's diffuser design has been protested by Ferrari, Red Bull Racing, and Renault.

"This has not, as far as I can tell, damaged FOTA. We have to learn to work in that way, because we when we get on the track there will be instances where we will get very upset with each other.

"We have to put that to one side and say within FOTA we are trying to do something which is good for the sport.


"I draw this analogy with rugby, which is that you go out on the field and try and kill each other, then you come back and you have a beer. You have got to be able to separate those two things. And FOTA has got to be able to do that.

"We have got to be able to go out on the race track, objecting to someone's technical specs of the car is all part of it. It is part of the event, and we have got to able to put that to one side and say, 'okay we are having our situation there but let's work on trying to help Formula 1 improve and become better'.

"If we do that, and we seem to be able to do that, then that means FOTA can work. If the first time we fall out on the track it blows FOTA apart then that's no good and I don't think that will happen."

The FIA's International Court of Appeal hearing into the legality of the diffuser designs is to take place in Paris next Tuesday.

A bit of emphasis added there. It's good to hear these statements as, in my opinion, F1 needs FOTA; it desperately needs FOTA to counter mismanagement (read profiteering) of the sport by others.
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Offline Everso Biggyballies

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #91 on: April 10, 2009, 09:43:22 pm »

The Canadian GP guy (whose name escapes me) has been suggesting basically that Bernie has lost the plot, and more to the point that he needs FOTA more than FOTA needs Bernie.  He is actively suggesting a breakaway of FOTA whilst they are not under any contractual obligation to Bernie (ie no current Concorde agreement). 

Without the teams Bernie has no TV deals, and essentially no real race deals.... unless he reclassifies GP2 as F1, which given the novice drivers involved is not the same clout as a Grand Prix pukka. The TV companies will come to FOTA to negotiate. The circuit owners would also,   All that needs to happen to cover it legally is rename it Grand Prix racing, (which Bernie doesn own and as I understand  cant be registered per se as it is a generic title for major races beyond F1..... ie drop all reference to the words or logo Formula 1 / F1 which Bernie / CVC / FOM does own.

Obviously there is more detail stuff that would need to be done, but if Bernie wont play ball, the teams do have hte strengh and in effect they have the show.  Without the cars, Bernie has no show, and would be in breach of contract with all the current races.  All the GP's currently lost / under threat would be saved.....
"Why doesnt someone tell Pedro its raining"- Chris Amon 1000km Brands Hatch 1970

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Offline Mothers Worry

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2009, 07:14:42 am »
FOTA facing challenge to maintain unity 

From autosport.com:

Quote
FOTA facing challenge to maintain unity 

Tuesday, April 21st 2009, 08:48 GMT

The Formula One Teams' Association is facing a tough challenge to stay united following the controversy over diffusers, the sport's figures agree.

FOTA had hailed an unprecedented unity between the teams when discussing and agreeing cost-cutting measures earlier this year.

However, the relationship between teams has become more strained after leading squads protested the design of the rear diffusers used by Brawn, Toyota and Williams.

Although the design has been ruled legal by the FIA, some teams remain unhappy with the situation and Renault boss Flavio Briatore has been open in his criticism of Brawn.

The row escalated further during the Chinese Grand Prix weekend, with Briatore saying Brawn should not be entitled to television rights' money and that he would make an official proposal to FOTA to prevent the team from receiving the payment.

Given the current situation, leading F1 figures believe it will be hard to keep the FOTA unity.

"I think it is unquestionably a challenge," said Williams CEO Adam Parr. "When you have got common interests, it is relatively easy to work together.

"Now, we did more than that because there were differences of opinion and differences of interest over the winter which Luca di Montezemolo as chairman of FOTA, with the help of Ron Dennis in particular and John Howett, pulled everyone together.

"I think that is harder now, simply because the reality of what we do is that the stuff on the track is so fundamental and so important that it is very difficult to think about the longer term bigger picture while you are fighting it out there. So, I am hoping that we will now pick ourselves up and gradually pull back together again.

"I have to say, that is going to be difficult while individual teams feel tremendously under pressure. But if FOTA is to be a long-lasting institution, it cannot be based about people feeling good about how they are going on the track. Because not everybody is going to feel good."

Parr reckons teams must leave the diffuser row behind them and go to the next FOTA meeting without any hidden agendas if they are to continue making progress.

"I think when we next get together, it has to be on the basis that what has happened has happened and we are moving on," he added.

"One of the things that I feel quite strongly about is that it is going to be very soon that all of the teams have adopted the diffuser designs, and then the competitive order will change unless teams like Williams are able to really push on with development.

"So the situation is going to change very quickly and I hope we can maintain the bigger picture."

BMW motorsport boss Mario Theissen agreed that the row will put FOTA to the test.

"It doesn't make it easier, definitely," Theissen said. "So far we have successfully kept apart the work on the future direction of the sport and on the other hand the operational daily business at the race track. This is definitely a test to FOTA."

Red Bull team principal Christan Horner echoed Theissen's thoughts, and he believes FOTA issues should not be discussed in public.

"I think it needs to be discussed within FOTA, it isn't healthy for the teams to be in this predicament but we need to look inwardly and discuss it. It will certainly be a test," said Horner.

Toyota team president John Howett, however, is adamant that the row should not affect FOTA's unity, as the teams' body should focus on bigger problems.

"I don't think it should be because I think the issues are entirely different," Howett told AUTOSPORT.

"There are a number of potentially major issues facing F1 and that is the area that FOTA has been established to interface with, both the federation and the commercial rights holder, and I don't personally feel there should be any issues as a consequence of that."
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Offline Eno the Wonderdog

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #93 on: April 27, 2009, 05:46:17 pm »
I think the time limit should be increased to 3 hours and a 300-400km race

Hang about - they used to be 3 hours or 300 miles then they were dumbed down to 2 hours or 200 miles..

Without the teams Bernie has no TV deals, and essentially no real race deals.... unless he reclassifies GP2 as F1, which given the novice drivers involved is not the same clout as a Grand Prix pukka.

I understood that this was the reason F1 went to 1500 cc engines - in effect Formula Junior - back in the late 50's / early 60's cause the beloved Italian teams (read Ferrari in particular if you wish) didn't have a suitable engine..

In my opinion the biggest problem that's gonna face FOTA is Flabby "Show me the Money" and "It's Everyone Elses's Fault" Mentezuma Ferrari guy's problems with not being able to make KERS work - and them being  L-) to boot of course..

Offline Everso Biggyballies

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #94 on: April 27, 2009, 09:09:44 pm »

Without the teams Bernie has no TV deals, and essentially no real race deals.... unless he reclassifies GP2 as F1, which given the novice drivers involved is not the same clout as a Grand Prix pukka.

I understood that this was the reason F1 went to 1500 cc engines - in effect Formula Junior - back in the late 50's / early 60's cause the beloved Italian teams (read Ferrari in particular if you wish) didn't have a suitable engine..

If that was the case they had less idea then than they do now, given theyfact that Ferrari had a V6 all conquering F2 engine just sitting there waiting for a set of sleeves in the bores to bring it to F1 spec, against the UK Godiva 4 cyl Firepump engine (aka Coventry Climax).  Ferrari won the '61 WDC at a canter with Phil Hill picking up where Von Trips left off when his career came to an abrupt and sad end at Monza.

In my opinion the biggest problem that's gonna face FOTA is Flabby "Show me the Money" and "It's Everyone Elses's Fault" Mentezuma Ferrari guy's problems with not being able to make KERS work - and them being  L-) to boot of course..

I see Flavio as more the problem than Montezemola tbh.  At least Montezemola is just warbling on about the rules.... but he is canny enough to know that unity is and has shown it is the way to give them (FOTA) the strength to alter the direction of things, ie points v medals. engines Flavio doesnt seem to have team unity in his vocabulary, and is happy to sacrifice same, indeed is happy to forego it to line his own pockets.  The only unity Flavio has is with his accountant and bankers.
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Offline Mothers Worry

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #95 on: May 08, 2009, 07:32:36 am »
Theissen in warning over two-tier F1

From autosport.com:

Quote
Theissen in warning over two-tier F1

Thursday, May 7th 2009, 17:11 GMT

BMW motorsport director Mario Theissen has warned that Formula 1's manufacturer teams may reconsider their future in the sport if a two-tier championship goes ahead next season.

With senior figures within the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) suggesting there is deep unhappiness at the FIA's decision to impose a voluntary budget cap for 2010, Theissen has admitted that car makers may turn their back on what he thinks would be a 'difficult situation' in the sport.

FOTA has already demanded 'urgent' talks with the FIA over the matter, and sources are suggesting that the current teams may even be evaluating a plan to not lodge their entries to the 2010 championship by the May 29 deadline if the current rules are not changed.

Making reference to the fact that the BMW board has given its full support to the F1 programme despite his team's difficult start, Theissen said that such an attitude could change dramatically if the voluntary budget cap is imposed.

"We analysed and evaluated the situation and the F1 programme with the board prior to the start of the season in February," said Theissen. "It was overall a very positive evaluation and judgement, and that hasn't changed.

"Apparently everybody is disappointed about the sporting results, but other than that there is no news and we have not discussed it since.

"What is important though is next year's regulations. We really hope that there will be a one tier F1 next year, and not two classes of cars running to different regulations, because that would definitely affect our next internal evaluation. It would be a different environment."

When asked if he felt that manufacturers would go so far as leave F1 because of the rules, he said: "It is hard to tell. It would definitely create a difficult situation."

FOTA's leading figures are keen not to talk too much about what was agreed at Wednesday's meeting in Heathrow, but high level sources within the organisation suggest there was a unanimous feeling that the current plans for 2010 had to change.

Theissen would not reveal any details but said: "I will not comment on the substance of our discussions. I can tell you that we are still in one boat.

"We are preparing a response from our side to the regulatory situation but also to the commercial side, and obviously we want to discuss this with the FIA. And the FIA first, not passing it onto them through the public and media."

Brawn team principal Ross Brawn added: "We have to find a solution. We are putting together some suggestions and our idea is to work with the FIA. We want to talk to them about our concerns.

"We want to put together some ideas in the next few weeks, and our goal is to reduce costs but also keep F1 as great as possible."

There is a time pressure to get the situation sorted, however, with entries to next year's championship closing at the end of this month.

The idea of the teams sticking together and not submitting any entries for 2010 is one possibility, while it has been suggested that some FOTA members are looking at the manner by which the voluntary budget cap has been introduced - and whether it subscribes to official FIA protocol.

Earlier this year, FOTA managed to get the FIA's introduction of a 'winner takes all' championship system scrapped after it was not introduced properly.

When asked if an entry boycott was possible, Theissen said: "Sorry. This is part of the discussion we want to have with the FIA."

With Ferrari having been at the centre of headlines all week about its future in the sport in the wake of the budget cap announcement, driver Felipe Massa expressed some weariness about the situation in Spain on Thursday.

"I feel that the political side is bigger than ever," he said. "I'm not happy about that.

"At the moment there are too many political games around F1 that I don't want to put myself in the middle of. The only thing I can say is that it would be nice to have a better sport, less political, and more sport."
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Offline Everso Biggyballies

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #96 on: May 08, 2009, 10:55:33 am »

It seems evrything is turning into a political infight between FOTA and the FIA/FOM.  I guess it is no bad thing in as much as it might stop some of the nonsense and badly thought out decisions of late (sort of runs at least at one a year almost.... im thinking V8's One set tyres per race and KERS being the worst. 
"Why doesnt someone tell Pedro its raining"- Chris Amon 1000km Brands Hatch 1970

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Offline Eno the Wonderdog

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #97 on: May 08, 2009, 06:46:00 pm »
It's a problem 'cause the FIA/FOM take the money and FOTA put on the show.

Reminiscent of the FISA / FOCA wars - except Bernie and Max had their shoes on the other foot!!  :laugh2:

Offline Supersleeper

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #98 on: May 09, 2009, 11:13:24 am »

It seems evrything is turning into a political infight between FOTA and the FIA/FOM.  I guess it is no bad thing in as much as it might stop some of the nonsense and badly thought out decisions of late (sort of runs at least at one a year almost.... im thinking V8's One set tyres per race and KERS being the worst. 
4 cars out of 20 running KERS this weekend - EB, I think "badly thought out" is very diplomatic of you. :yodagrin:

It's a farce and it needs to stop. KERS should be banned from use next season.

Offline Matt

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Re: FOTA issues and discussion.
« Reply #99 on: May 09, 2009, 09:12:58 pm »

It seems evrything is turning into a political infight between FOTA and the FIA/FOM.  I guess it is no bad thing in as much as it might stop some of the nonsense and badly thought out decisions of late (sort of runs at least at one a year almost.... im thinking V8's One set tyres per race and KERS being the worst. 
4 cars out of 20 running KERS this weekend - EB, I think "badly thought out" is very diplomatic of you. :yodagrin:

It's a farce and it needs to stop. KERS should be banned from use next season.



Cry some more Webber-fan :P
What does a scanner see? I mean, really see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does it see into me--into us--clearly or darkly? I hope it does, see clearly, because I can't any longer these days see into myself.

 

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