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Offline Everso Biggyballies

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WRC 'Tactics' . Your Thoughts Discussion.
« on: February 14, 2009, 06:53:49 pm »
I dont know about you but I find it quite irritating to see the well used terms 'Tactics' and 'Strategy' taking over in Motorsport to the extent that is has almost eclipsed the terms upon which the Sport has become so addictive to those that take part, as Spectators, or if you have a 'Sponsor / Endless Family Wealth / Lottery Win / Sugar Daddy,  as a competitor.   Sadly terms such as Performance, Flat Out, On the limit etc dont seem to count for quite as much, when you read accounts such as this...


:ebopen: Hirvonen admits to tactical slowing

Mikko Hirvonen has admitted that he deliberately handed the Rally Norway lead to Sebastien Loeb this afternoon to get a better road position for day two.

Ford driver Hirvonen had been on course to take a slender lead over Loeb into Saturday, but dropped nine seconds to the world champion in today's final stage - putting him 2.6 seconds behind overall and guaranteeing that Loeb will be first into the snowy stages tomorrow.

Hirvonen initially insisted that he had been delayed by tyre problems rather than slowing for tactical reasons, but he has since admitted that he deliberately chose to switch positions once he realised Loeb was gaining on him in the stage.

"I knew I would lose time on the stage because it was twisty," he said. "When we saw how much time we had dropped to Loeb mid-stage, I decided to slow.

"My lead would have been so small that it made sense to take the advantage of starting behind him tomorrow. I can follow his split times and react accordingly. It won't be easy but I like to be the guy chasing and not being chased."

Loeb said he was disappointed to be first on the road again tomorrow, but is delighted that he is leading the rally, having feared he would struggle to match the Fords in Norway given his previous lack of success on snow.

"I could see that Hirvonen's tyres weren't in ideal shape going into the last stage," he said. "I don't know whether he slowed down deliberately to hand me the lead, but the fact remains that we're in front this evening.

"With the gap standing at less than three seconds, I would have preferred to have been second on the road tomorrow, but I don't think running first will be an insurmountable problem. We shall see."

Citroen boss Olivier Quesnel reckoned Hirvonen was starting to crack under the pressure from Loeb, who had remained within seven seconds of the lead all day despite running first on the road from the outset.

"Sebastien drove magnificently and I think he's succeeded in sowing a seed of doubt in the mind of our opponent," said Quesnel.

"I believe he's gained the upper hand psychologically, and we will need to push that advantage home tomorrow." :ebclose:

It just seems foreign to me that someone can drive with all the virtues and skills that attract us to motorsport, yet at the end of the day, give all those hard fought for seconds lead back to your pursuers, 'to get a better start position' the next day. 

In other words, Its Quicker to go Slow..... When losing time makes you the quickest. :nowink: :RollEyes:

Its not a new thing in WRC sadly.  Its almost ten years ago now that Carlos Sainz stunned the world of Motorsport right here in Australia....  Sainz was excluded after he deliberately stopped, whilst leading, to deliberately lose time between the last k/m. post and the flying finish on an end of day stage.  Why?  Simply because the Australian stages are notorious for having a loose, ball-bearing style surface to the gravel.  The first car on the road leaves first, and in effect becomes the road sweeper for the following cars.  Once that is swept clear, there is much more grip and cars can go much faster.

In that instance, Sainz did it deliberately to highlight the futility of the situation, and to emphasise what everyone else was already doing discretely, which was driving at 80% or slow enough to ensure they were not fastest.  A total opposite to what Motor Racing is all about.  In his case he was in my mind treated badly, excluded for 'bringing the sport into disrepute by making it look silly.  Reality is that he was being honest, the others were doing it in their own more deceitful way.

10 years After, (Great Band in their day ;)) we still have the same thing happening, but now it is seemingly a problem that is there in all WRC rallies, on all surfaces. 

Whose fault is it?  Team Managers and Strategists, those that instruct the drivers?  Not really, they are just maximising the opportunity of achieving the ultimate best result, ensuring that come the last day their driver is running on the best possible surface to allow the car and driver to perform at their ultimate level for the all important final stages. 

Is it the drivers?  No, not really.  Im sure no race / competitive driver actually wants to go out there and drive at 80%. Thats not why they got into racing in the first place.  Its a bit like going on a trip in your 5.0Litre 500+bhp V10 BMW M5 road car,(I wish!) getting onto an empty freeeway with a 100kph speed limit, and setting the cruise control at 80kph....

Clearly it comes down to the rulemakers.  It sounds simple, and one with many ways to overcome the problem. Maybe the outright leaders run at the end instead of first?  The problem then is that the very opposite might happen, with the stage potentially becoming rutted and dangerous for the much quicker WRC cars.  Or weather conditions might change and leave the leader to potentially be running after a cloudburst or blizzard.  Or indeed one of the lesser class cars may have an off on a stage and cause problems for the WRC cars getting a clear passage.

Maybe the answer is with just the top 10 run in reverse order so the outright contenders rightfully all get a similar level of surface to show their talents on.(In WRC terms these days that is probably the actual full field of WRC spec cars, with the entries being made up with Group N / S2000 based cars and 'other cars and classes.')  At least then the position would be one of 'only' compromising lower in the field runners.

Maybe, and this is my choice, they should have say a couple of legends of the sport (Vatanen Makinen Sainz etc) start the days proceedings by going through the stages in historically interesting Rally Cars.  That way the spectators get an opportunity to see these guys and the cars in much the same way as they have Historic demonstrations at the major meets at the GP / Bathurst etc, and that aspect alone can be used as a promotable plus to the event. It creates an image and concept of History that is important in all aspects of Motor Sport to ensure the actual heritage of rallying continues to be presented to new and younger generation fans.   It also would most importantly act as a great track sweeping 'support programme / preamble.'  It would get spectators onto the stage areas early, rather than if the main guys were going to be later in the day, and it would make great TV.  Plus im sure the legends, many of whom are there at the WRC rounds for media and commentary purposes anyway. The manufacturers of the cars get the promotional benefits of the cars being on show.  The on board TV footage would make a much better preamble than the current computer graphics they use.  This way no actual competitor from any level is actually advantaged or disadvantaqged, and it would kill the need for tactics relating to next days start position.  We would get to see the cars actually at their maximum, with the drivers showing their skills along with their navigators.  Quite simply it would increase spectacle and credibility, with no real downside.

My point here in this post is whatever option is put forward, and there are many more than I have mentioned,  there are probably several that would result in us as spectators / fans / armchair experts getting to see the drivers doing what they love to do, and we love to see..... driving at 100%, 100% of the time.  That in itself surely has to make a change in the way it is currently done worthwhile. 

What we cannot escape is that it is a tragedy that 10 years (almost) after Sainz highlighted the problem to the world so publicly and blatantly, the rulemakers and organisers still have not seen the futility and irony of all the millions of dollars being spent by teams and promoters to attract the best drivers in the cars that are within the confines of the regulations, the ultimate masterpieces of performance engineering and technology that man, computers, money, and unobtanium by the bucketload can produce, being driven at tactical and strategic times slower probably than you or I could drive them at.  And that is a sad indictment on the mindset and priorities of the people that make the rules.  Its a  :pissed: take of the whole ethics and spirit of motorsport.

Anyone else feel the same?  Anyone have an answer? 
Please add your comments and lets discuss. 
:ThumbsUp: :hmm: ;)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 07:06:52 pm by Everso Biggyballies »
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Offline Racin Jason

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Re: WRC 'Tactics' . Your Thoughts Discussion.
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2009, 09:34:18 pm »
Theres some nice ideas put forward there! I love the idea of the stars of yesteryear running in cars, hopefully group b woohoo! :ThumbsUp: :wOOt: I have always thought that the issue could be resolved with a system similar to one that you put forward where at the end of the day, the top ten on road get to choose their order for the start of the next day and the rest of the field simply start in road order as per normal. eg loeb is first, chooses to start 3rd day on day 2, Hirvonen is 2nd, chooses to start 4th on day 2, Petter Solberg 3rd and wanting to show that being a roadsweeper is nothing chooses to start 1st and . Doing it that way would eliminate people slowing to gain road advantage as it would be more of an advantage to be first and choose road position

Honestly, the only time I have slowed up when racing is to conserve the car in a long race, but then again its not like Ive been in an outright position being in the production class racing against big budget unlimited buggies lol  But I couldnt really understand slowing anyway, its frustrating to drive slow, much much more fun to be pushing the limits and getting in to the groove and letting it flow

Nice thread BTW :ThumbsUp:
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Offline Mothers Worry

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Re: WRC 'Tactics' . Your Thoughts Discussion.
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2009, 02:45:54 pm »
Yeah I prefer my motorsport to be peddle to the metal...........
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Offline Courtney No. 1

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Re: WRC 'Tactics' . Your Thoughts Discussion.
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2009, 08:51:33 am »
Yep, its a complete joke that they haven't fixed it.  I thought that for at least one year at Rally Aus the drivers had been able to select their road order.  This seems like such a simple and obvious solution, I really don't understand why they use anything else.  Maybe WRC isn't immune to idiot rule makers either?

Then again if they could organise a bunch of the legendary cars from yesteryear to do some hard charging stints to open the stages that would be absolutely awesome.
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Offline Oldtony

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Re: WRC 'Tactics' . Your Thoughts Discussion.
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2009, 06:58:08 pm »
OK EB I get where you are coming from, and I agree that the clean road tactics are not the best image for the WRC.
Certainly your suggestion about the "legends" would be a crowd pleaser but I wonder how hard, and how expensive it would be to organise for wvery gravel round. And it is only gravel rounds that make this a possible tactic for use by the teams. And that tends to mean places like Argentine, Mexico, Australia, and NZ. , all of which are not exactly cheap in terms of frieght bills.
For the Tweed event the problem has been magnified by the fact that the Super Special was run after the order for the following day was set thus allowing full on attack at that (which of course you want) without being sucessful harming you next day start position. That set up meant that the potential sacrifice of slowing to let someone else sweep the road was not as great as it would be otherwise.
Personally I wonder if it would not be easier to fiddle with the running order and have the Group N, or Junior classes run ahead of the WRC cars on gravel or mixed surfaces. Wouldn't work so well on some of the mud or snow events, and certainly mainly tarmac events should be run with the No1 car leading off.
But then as the really great champions in motorsport have always demonstrated to make any tactics work you have to be good enough to impliment them.
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Offline Everso Biggyballies

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Re: WRC 'Tactics' . Your Thoughts Discussion.
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2009, 09:11:08 pm »

For the Tweed event the problem has been magnified by the fact that the Super Special was run after the order for the following day was set thus allowing full on attack at that (which of course you want) without being sucessful harming you next day start position. That set up meant that the potential sacrifice of slowing to let someone else sweep the road was not as great as it would be otherwise.


Firstly, I agree that the concept of the legends cars is a bit unworkable due to the cost, and also the fact that many of the events where the problem is magnified is the distant events.

Secondly OT, as far as I can determine, (and I think is what you are saying) the rulings on running order for the next day are taken from the position for running order from the last actual stage, not including any 'Superspecial' stages..... so in effect by the time they had arrived for the Superspecial stage last night for instance, the running order had already been set and the silly games been played before they hit the streets..

This actually made it worse still for this round, as was proven by last night where the games / tactics had already been played by the time the Street Superspecial started, the Citroens had their lower start position set, yet Sordo I think it was blitzed the Superspecial and as far as I can work out ended up actually leading the rally overall, yet still had the benefit of a favourable start as set from the pre Superspecial positions.. :angry:
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Offline macksrallye

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Re: WRC 'Tactics' . Your Thoughts Discussion.
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2009, 04:45:43 pm »
There is a couple of simple options to eliminate these horrid & ugly tactics.

#1: Get rid of in-car split times & penalise any team that sends people out onto stages with intent to supply their drivers with incar split times. This means that there is still going to be simular tactics used but it is much more of a gamble of how much to slow down.

#2: Revert back to the old, championship order on day1, reverse results order for the remaining days of the event.

#3: Top ten drivers must report to rally hq for a meeting where they choose their start position for the next day. This means the teams are still using tactics but it is no where near as ugly or horrible to watch from a spectators point of view.
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Offline bpratt

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Re: WRC 'Tactics' . Your Thoughts Discussion.
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2009, 05:29:49 pm »
There is a couple of simple options to eliminate these horrid & ugly tactics.

#1: Get rid of in-car split times & penalise any team that sends people out onto stages with intent to supply their drivers with incar split times. This means that there is still going to be simular tactics used but it is much more of a gamble of how much to slow down.

#2: Revert back to the old, championship order on day1, reverse results order for the remaining days of the event.

#3: Top ten drivers must report to rally hq for a meeting where they choose their start position for the next day. This means the teams are still using tactics but it is no where near as ugly or horrible to watch from a spectators point of view.

All good points, but then the difficulty comes in policing such new rules with the technology these guys can put in their cars, and coded message from their teams.

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Offline Mad Maper 13

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Re: WRC 'Tactics' . Your Thoughts Discussion.
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2009, 05:51:20 pm »
the 3rd one is very good one and easy to apply
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