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Author Topic: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion  (Read 2988 times)

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Offline Oldtony

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Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« on: June 10, 2008, 02:13:52 pm »
Our Beloved leader had a joint press conference in Japan this morning and announced that Toyota would start production of Hybrids at the Altona Plant sometime before 2010. The Govt would 'invest' 35 million in the tooling up for production and in R&D into clean vehicle technology. The Commonwealth and Victorian Govts have stated that they will change their fleets over to hybrids in 2010. That is about 6000 vehicles per year out of a proposed Australian production of 10000 per year at Altona.
The Green groups and the auto industry unions have supported the move for obvious symbolic, but not very well thought out reasons.
Very smart work on the part of Toyota, but it shows how the power of symbolism overcomes both logic and technology.
I have no argument with hydrids like Prius, Lexus, Honda or the Hino and Isuzu which use the battery regen principle as city and inner urban transport and delivery vehicles. They make good sense in that environment, but to stick all the eggs in that basket, particularly as a large percentage of motoring in Australia is highway and country road running is plain daft.
The problem with this whole decision is the lack of local input into future development by Ford, Holden and previously Mitsubishi. The dumb twits have let US and Japan head offices, and the local fixation with 'full size cars' with big engines push our motor industry down a dead end track. I think Holden Ford and Mitsu signed their own death warrants when the introduced their latest models without even a diesel option, let alone any form of energy recycling technology. Can anyone think of a reason (other than dumb stupidity) that there are not turbo deisel options for Commodore, Falcon, and in particular Territory?
The difficulty with Prius technology outside the constant stop start cycle in the city is that the car has to lug around up to 200kg of batteries which at constant cruise become just dead wieght, and in fact a fuel using handicap. Turbo diesel is much more efficient for that type of work. The Prius technology is at it's best in high traffic density patterns, just the section of transportation which is best handled by an efficent Public Transport system, while turbo deisel is much more efficient in transport patterns where high density Public Transport is not a cost effective proposition.
If Holden and Ford get their buts into gear right now and come up with some specialised technology to handle LCSG (Liquified Coalseam Gas) or LPG as the prime fuel, together with some KERS type technology wich gives braking energy recycling with out the fuel penalty of lugging batteries around they might have a hope. I would suggest that they have about 3 years to have it in production or Bye Bye Holden and Ford.
By the way LCSG in Queensland has claimed proven reserves enough to supply all of Australia's transport fuel needs for an estimated 100 years, and the LPG reseves off WA and in the Timor gap are even bigger. Both burn cleaner than petrol and would reduce the carbon footprint of private motoring.
Meanwhile, I hate to say it, but V8SC just took another major blow as the wrong image for the sport.
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Offline Yoda

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2008, 06:33:46 pm »
I agree OT, Ford and Holden have pretty much ignored the writing that has been on the wall for some time. I don't know what it is going to take for them to get it through their thick heads that Australians do not want big cars anymore?

Its obvious the shift is on to smaller fuel efficient vehicles. Ford and GM are just about out of time. Ford has launched its f model falcon, another big car  :wacko:

I don't know if these manufacturers have an alternative small car in overseas markets, but if they do they need to get it over here and start marketing it otherwise both companies will loose their sizeable market share to others who have read the market correctly.


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Offline Prophet][

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2008, 06:57:28 pm »
I would have thought Holden or Ford would be bidding on defence contracts, especially holden which have a factory next to two of the largest defence research sites in Australia. My company won the contract to make army vehicles but we now need to get the people and facilities to make them. Would be easy money if Holden came and did it all.

Offline bpratt

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2008, 08:07:36 pm »

Can anyone think of a reason (other than dumb stupidity) that there are not turbo deisel options for Commodore, Falcon, and in particular Territory?

You are kidding aren't you? .... no turbo diesel variant for the Territory?

No wonder the Australian motoring industry is going backwards.
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Offline Yoda

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2008, 08:11:51 pm »
I don't think the sort of people that buy a Ford Territory are too concerned about fuel consumption or carbon emmisions.


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Offline Prophet][

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2008, 08:14:06 pm »
Diesel here will never be as big as it is in europe. We have the LPG market and it would be interesting to see if someone will make a hybrid with LPG.

Offline Muzza

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2008, 08:29:42 pm »
What's got me stumped is why Kevin Dudd is handing over 70mil in our tax dollars to a company that was already going to produce the vehicles here......!! :unsure: The japs must have had a hard time sitting in that meeting trying not to piss them self's lol lol lol silly.
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Offline Oldtony

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2008, 08:32:36 pm »
Agreed Prophet. One of the compressed gases is probably the best wat to go for the local industry. Don't know what the economics of a dual fuel (Coalseam or Petroleum gas) would be. I understand the coalseam gas has a slightly lower energy value tha petroleum gas, but, being onshore is cheaper to recover.
Don't know about the battery based hybrid function, but there is certainly a case for a KERS type energy recovery system, capacitor, hydraulic or flywheel, whichever could be reliable, light and efficient.
Probably deisel will remain the fuel of choice for remote area use as it is safe to store and transport.
Don't know if the shares I have in Natural Fuels Ltd, which has a fair size bio-diesel plant in mothballs in Darwin will ever do me any good. The problem is the cost of feedstock and the lack of excise relief which was forshadowed but never happened.

Not knocking the idea of Toyota type hybrids, but the local industry could cut itself a good niche in the world market by developing something using a non oil fuel scource, optimised for longer distance motoring, and supplying that technology to non urban markets round the world.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 09:56:06 pm by Oldtony »
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Offline Mad Maper 13

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2008, 09:40:56 pm »
on the 7:30 report they said holden has already said it will make hybrids.
Do not know weather this is true or not
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Offline Everso Biggyballies

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2008, 02:08:52 am »
on the 7:30 report they said holden has already said it will make hybrids.
Do not know weather this is true or not

Im not sure if Holden are doing much specific development for themselves, but equally I am sure that GM will be up to something globally that would be adapted for local use by Holden.  Of course Holden may have a GM budget to assist in parts of their global Hybrid plans.  That is just an opinion not based on anything I have read so take it on that basis ;)
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Offline Oldtony

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2008, 08:03:37 am »
I dont think that GM even do a factory fitted Gas Kit yet do they?  Ford are selling a significant proportion of ute and fleet sales gas equipped ex factory.
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Offline Muzza

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2008, 09:26:30 pm »
I dont think that GM even do a factory fitted Gas Kit yet do they?  Ford are selling a significant proportion of ute and fleet sales gas equipped ex factory.
Yeah the 3.6lt Alloytec has the option for factory fitted gas to the VE range, but just how many are taking that option is another question??
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Offline Oldtony

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2008, 11:24:57 am »
A Lismore high tech development company, Permo-Drive. has today said it will have to call in the recievers because of the withdrawl of the Governments Market Ready Development Grant scheme. They had applied for a $5million grant to build pre-production prototype unit for in service testing of an energy recovery system for urban commercial vehicles using a compressed nitrogen over hydraulic pump/motor technology.
Seems odd that the Govt. is giving Toyota, a Japanese company, $35million to produce old technology, but is taking away $5million from an Australian company preventing them from proving up a new technology aimed at the same sort of fuel saving result
Have a look at  http://www.permo-drive.com/tech/index.htm
Might be a KERS option if you could build it small enough and light enough.
Nothing new in the principle, the secret would be in the electronics and control mechanisms to make it driveable. Would be ideal for Urban buses and delivery vehicles.
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Offline Mad Maper 13

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2008, 03:19:28 pm »
Kevin Dudd the Asian strikes again
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Offline doineedthis

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2008, 05:13:11 pm »
not sure if this is viable, and maybe some of you who know could answer, but could we not have a car in australia with a solar panel on the roof, last time i looked we seem to have a constant supply of sun....   if we could, then it could charge up whilst driving, saving money on hooking it up to a plug socket
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Offline Oldtony

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2008, 05:37:16 pm »
They run the Solar Challenge race from Darwin to Adelade evert 2 years for prototype cars operated strictly on Solar power.
It draws contestants from all over the world and is recognised as the ultimate event for those cars.
I guess the addition of a couple of Solar panels to either a plug in electric, or a battery hybrid could assist in extending range. Would seem funny dodging undercover parking in favour of the sunny spots!
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Offline Prophet][

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2008, 07:07:56 pm »
The competition is not strictly solar cars now. As of last year there is "exebition" categories for electric and hybrid cars that wish to show off and offically record fuel efficency. Electric cars are charged by generators along the way. Kind of pointless I know, but universities like mine like to show off research.

Offline Courtney No. 1

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2008, 08:08:10 pm »
UNSW got right behind the solar car project quite a few years back.  Since then a fairly active and well known team has sprung up.  They are quite competitive in their particular category, I think they finished fourth in the last race.  However their car runs off the power of an electric toaster, so yes you could use a solar panel but it really wouldn't get you very far.  Maybe at some point in the future it could become economically viable but at the moment solar panels are just too expensive I would suspect.
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Offline Prophet][

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2008, 08:47:50 pm »
They are slowly getting down in price. I've read of new techniques that can get the price down to $1 per watt they can produce by next year. At the same time though most large solar producers can not keep up with growing demand so the price rises.

Offline Courtney No. 1

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Re: Eco-friendly/Green Road Cars News and Discussion
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2008, 10:48:59 am »
hmmm....

Back of the envelope type calculations.

Roof of a standard car ~1 sq metre
Power from sun          ~1 kW / sq metre
Efficiency of decent solar panel ~ 20%
Power from solar panel ~ 0.2kW

Power of small car       ~100kW


Even if you could get a 100% efficient solar panel you wouldn't get enough juice whilst running to do anything very useful.  So we are really only interested in how much stored power we can get while the car is sitting somewhere.  Obviously overnight it gets nothing.  So you're looking at somewhere around maybe 12 hours of decent sunlight at best, 43 200seconds, or with our 0.2kW panel 8.64MJ of energy stored.

So 8.64MJ input to battery
Efficiency of storage and wiring ~50%
Energy for use                        ~4.32MJ
in kWh                                  ~1.2kWh

What it means:

In a one hour drive home you could have an average of an extra 1.2kW, doesn't really seem worth the effort.  But with standard city driving you might only be needing an extra boost of power in 20 sec spurts in your drive home, lets say you require 10kW to make a noticeable difference (if it doesn't get out of your SUV).  Each of these runs requires a 0.2MJ input, so you could have 21.6 of these inputs on an average day.  Thats 20 odd sets of traffic lights, at that point it starts to look enticing, but remember that to get this energy into the drive system you need to have all the electric motors and batteries that a Toyota prius has to lug around.

So is it useful?  Maybe, if you are already driving a Prius and you get lots of good sunlight wherever your car spends the daylight hours.
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