Monaco Grand Prix -

Phillip Island -

Author Topic: F1 Technology bans.  (Read 1018 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Oldtony

  • Legendary Racer
  • *
  • Posts: 2534
F1 Technology bans.
« on: February 25, 2010, 03:45:21 pm »
Over the period of the Max & Bernie governance of F1 it has been interesting to watch the use of bans on particular forms of technology being used, mainly under the excuses of cost, safety and sometimes to suposedly improve the spectacle or competition.
There is a long list of technical developments that are, or could be associated with genuine motoring improvements that have been aborted in F1 while a whole range of useless outside F1 aero development has been allowed to continue.
One is tempted to search the share registers of Wind tunnel builders looking for names like Ecclestone, Moseley, Donnoly, Whiting etc.
Some of the items worth looking at in the M&B era are the banning of anything but 4 cycle power, anything other than poppet valves, variable valve timinng, electronic valve actuation, anything other than standard ECUs, CVT transmissions, Anti Lock brake systems, electronic stability or suspension control, variable ride hieght, regenerative braking systems (later revived in emasculated form as KERS) traction control, many forms of data exchange, mass damping, etc etc.
Instead of providing an overall framework within which inovative technology could thrivethe framework of F1 has been governed by a sort of control freak attitude of banning anything different.
This rant was brought on by checking on some Australian technology, the Bishop Rotary valve concept, which was due to debut in F1 around 1998 in an engine built by Ilmor.
The concept seemed to have finaly succeeded in making the long dreamed of rotary valve concept a practical working proposition using an alternative method of carrying the rotating assembly to avoid the problems of exhaust leakage and distortion. With the modern materials available by the 90's it seemed that this could be a practical proposition, and that F1 was the ideal laboratory for testing and proving the idea. While the project did not seem to offer an increase in power it did offer a significantly lighter and more compact engine with a much lower centre of gravity. Unfortunately
Max got wind of the project and banned it, and any other form of valves than poppet valves, on the grounds of cost. Ilmor at the time claimed that in fact over a season the rotary valve concept could offer savings but at the time they were in the process of becoming part of the Mercedes F1 development program so it was shunted off to a corner and forgotten about.
Now that Max has gone, and Bernie is becoming increasingly non compus I wonder if we will see F1 regain it's place as a leader in technology?
Which banned technology do you think F1 should revive to become interesting and relevant again?

Getting old is Mandatory. Acting it is Optional

Offline bpratt

  • Administrator
  • Legendary Racer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5643
  • View 's Album

    • Logan Village Weather
Re: F1 Technology bans.
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2010, 07:40:03 pm »

Which banned technology do you think F1 should revive to become interesting and relevant again?

I'd love to see F1 get back to it's former glory and become the ground of technology it once used to be.


Active Suspension and ground effects were my favourites that were later banned.

The higher revving multivalve varied number of cylinders where we had v6's, v8's, v10's, and v12's.

In later days, KERS was something that I was really hopeful that it would create a lot more interest, but sadly they effectively stifled the crap out of it.... there were some really interesting options like the flywheel kers that William had bought.

2008+2009 V8 tipping comp Champion


Offline Supersleeper

  • Administrator
  • Legendary Racer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1958
Re: F1 Technology bans.
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2010, 09:12:20 pm »
I didn't mind the banning of traction control - I saw no skill in a driver holding a button down until the engine stopped throwing fuel out the back. KERS should have been a major opportunity for F1 to show it's technical advancement, however it was neutered from the start, and provided such a questionable benefit to the cars over a lap, that the first 2 teams weren't powered by the technology. I believe sportscars had run a form of KERS in years gone by, and last year in F1 added little if any advancement to that type of technology. Energy recovery systems will probably become standard fare when the number of battery powered cars increases, so it may have come a little before it's time.

Offline Supersleeper

  • Administrator
  • Legendary Racer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1958
Re: F1 Technology bans.
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2010, 04:10:54 pm »
Which banned technology do you think F1 should revive to become interesting and relevant again?
How about continuous variable transmission?

Offline Jiji_the_cat

  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Racer
  • **
  • Posts: 2565
  • Kobayashi cuts like Samurai
    • SPUDD
Re: F1 Technology bans.
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2010, 07:41:36 pm »
just found out via twitter that Mclaren invited charlie whiting over to inspect their rear wing. Mclaren insist it is legal.
"Not bad for a number 2."

Offline Oldtony

  • Legendary Racer
  • *
  • Posts: 2534
Re: F1 Technology bans.
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2010, 12:03:36 pm »
No doubt the wing itself is legal.
The real question is whether altering the bleed air exit from the engine cover by the driver to stall the rear wing at high speed in a straight line constitutes a "moveable aerodynamic device".
Even if the F1 tech people say OK it can still be appealed at Bahrain.

Edit: And of course this is on topic because "movable aero" was one of the things banned and mass dampers were classed as that because they corrected the movement of the floor relative to the road thus changing the airflow under the car. I would think if you could take an interpretation that far, changing the engine cover air bleed to suit could also be banned. But times have cahanged, Max has gone.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 03:11:07 pm by Oldtony »
Getting old is Mandatory. Acting it is Optional

Offline Mothers Worry

  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Racer
  • **
  • Posts: 8750
  • Because in a split second, it's gone-Ayrton Senna
Re: F1 Technology bans.
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2010, 11:40:11 am »
FIA confirms ride-height systems are illegal

From thef1times.com:

Quote
FIA confirms ride-height systems are illegal

Wednesday 07, 16:49

The FIA has confirmed that any ride-height system, such as the one rumoured to be on the RB6, would be deemed illegal by the sports technical regulations.

In a letter sent to all F1 teams, the FIA clarified that any self-levelling system, used to regulate the height of the cars through qualifying and the race, would go against article 34.5 of the sporting regulations.

Well; bluffs have been called now. Let's hope all this doesn't end up in some type of courtroom setting..............
Quote
" I build the Car First then make a Drawing, are You Paying Attention Detroit?"-Ed "Big Daddy" Roth
Motor racing is dangerous

AMF YOUTUBE LINK HERE!

Offline Oldtony

  • Legendary Racer
  • *
  • Posts: 2534
Re: F1 Technology bans.
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2010, 09:01:37 pm »
Well so far that is ride hieght adjustment banned this year, and Double deck diffusers for next year.
I'm sure they will think up someting else to ban before the end of the seasom.
Interestingly, something which isn't officially banned but isn't being used under a gentlemans agreement is KERS. In the news at the moment with Willams taking the major syakeholding in Williams Hybrid Technology which is further developing the Magnetically Loaded Composite (MLC) flywheel system at it's new Dubai technical centre. It has already raced in a Poesche at a couple of Nurburgring VLN series races, finishing as high as third. Be interesting to see how it goes in the Nring 24hr in May as the longer distance should suit it's better fuel consumptio and reduced brake pad wear charachteristics.
By the weay, is "Gentleman's agreement" a bit of an oxymoron when applied to F1?
Getting old is Mandatory. Acting it is Optional

Offline Mothers Worry

  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Racer
  • **
  • Posts: 8750
  • Because in a split second, it's gone-Ayrton Senna
Re: F1 Technology bans.
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2010, 08:10:04 am »
By the weay, is "Gentleman's agreement" a bit of an oxymoron when applied to F1?
Probably.......... :)
Quote
" I build the Car First then make a Drawing, are You Paying Attention Detroit?"-Ed "Big Daddy" Roth
Motor racing is dangerous

AMF YOUTUBE LINK HERE!

Offline Mothers Worry

  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Racer
  • **
  • Posts: 8750
  • Because in a split second, it's gone-Ayrton Senna
Re: F1 Technology bans.
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2010, 03:33:42 pm »
Teams agree to ban F-ducts for 2011 

From autosport.com:

Quote
Teams agree to ban F-ducts for 2011 

Sunday, May 9th 2010, 17:32 GMT

Ferrari's F-DuctFormula 1 teams have voted in favour of a ban on F-ducts for next season, after teams rejected a plea by McLaren not to outlaw the blown wing concept.

McLaren stole a march on the opposition at the start of this season by introducing the F-duct onto its car - which provides a straight-line speed advantage through drivers diverting air to help stall the rear wing.

Rivals teams have worked hard to try and copy the system, but have found difficulties incorporating it because chassis have to be homologated for this season.

Although Sauber, Ferrari, Williams and Mercedes GP have managed to run blown rear wings already, a majority of teams were concerned that designs could get out of control for next season - both on cost and safety grounds.............

........ FOTA agreed earlier this season to outlaw double diffusers as well for next season because of fears that the designs were getting out of control, and they did little to improve the racing.
More gentlemen's agreements at FOTA.
Quote
" I build the Car First then make a Drawing, are You Paying Attention Detroit?"-Ed "Big Daddy" Roth
Motor racing is dangerous

AMF YOUTUBE LINK HERE!

Offline Mothers Worry

  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Racer
  • **
  • Posts: 8750
  • Because in a split second, it's gone-Ayrton Senna
Re: F1 Technology bans.
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2010, 08:26:49 am »
FIA to introduce tougher front-wing load tests

From thef1times.com:

Quote
FIA to introduce tougher front-wing load tests

Monday 02nd August 2010 

Mercedes team principal, Ross Brawn, understands that the FIA will change the tests it carries out on the front-wings to finally determine whether or not the Red Bull and Ferrari wings, which have been shown to flex under pressure, are in fact legal.

The wings have so far passed the stringent weight tests conducted by the FIA before and after the races. However, Brawn believes the reason they have passed is because the current tests aren't correct.

"I understand that there may be some changes in the way the tests are done, but obviously the cars involved pass the current tests," he is quoted as saying by Autosport. "And the argument is that if they pass the current test, then the tests are not correct.

"You can clearly see on the track that there is quite a dramatic difference between the cars, which is part of the game – I've been there myself so what normally happens is that the FIA improve the tests and I think that is what is going to happen."

The FIA has the right to conduct further tests and it is understood that they will increase the load put on the wing from 50kg to 100kg, allowing a flex of 20mm, rather than 10mm.

Brawn is hoping the new tests will find the wings to be in breach of the regulations, meaning his team won't need to embark on a costly development race.

"That is our dilemma at the moment. It is our dilemma, McLaren's dilemma. I don't know how they do it yet, but if we devoted enough resource to it then I am sure we could end up in the same situation. But we would rather not do it.

"So we want to see some clarity because it would be very relevant for next year. And if that is considered the accepted approach, then we will want to tackle it for next year."
Quote
" I build the Car First then make a Drawing, are You Paying Attention Detroit?"-Ed "Big Daddy" Roth
Motor racing is dangerous

AMF YOUTUBE LINK HERE!

Offline chief350

  • Practicing
  • *
  • Posts: 122
Re: F1 Technology bans.
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2010, 09:16:05 am »
is this a case of "we didnt think of it first so its not allowed"?
its not cheating ,if its not in the rulebook

Offline bpratt

  • Administrator
  • Legendary Racer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5643
  • View 's Album

    • Logan Village Weather
Re: F1 Technology bans.
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2010, 03:38:57 pm »
is this a case of "we didnt think of it first so its not allowed"?

That's pretty much it.

Also, the wings stood up to the testing requirements at the beginning of the year, so why should the testing methods be changed halfway through the year to then make the wings illegal because they've doubled the weight so that they can then make them flex when they didn't before.

By all means change the testing methods for 2011, but don't move the goal posts now.
2008+2009 V8 tipping comp Champion


Offline Oldtony

  • Legendary Racer
  • *
  • Posts: 2534
Re: F1 Technology bans.
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2010, 09:49:51 pm »
The rules sp[ecify the test. Therefor to change the test you have to in effect change the rules.
My understanding was that to do this they have to get unanimous agreement from the teams, but then maybe the WMSC can  issue an edict.
The problem is the rule, and it's associated test load, was written back when the span of the front wings was limited to inside the inner wall alignment of the front tyres and there were were no movable flaps on the wing. The cange in regulation meant that the front wings can now generate a much greater level of downforce (I understand in excess of 200kg) so the 50kg test wieght is no longer a effective test.
It is a very smart bit of lateral thinking and should be allowed to continue. F1 is dumb enough already so you can understand why Newey is supposedly talking aqbout going away and designing LMP cars.
Getting old is Mandatory. Acting it is Optional

 

commonwealth
commonwealth

Official Podcaster

Of The AMF

YouTube AMF forum video